After a long time away, we’re finally back with a Kaladin POV chapter! (It’s been so long. We missed you, you poor emo Windrunner, you.) He, Shallan, Adolin, and Elhokar are on their way to Kholinar to begin Mission: Open Oathgate (and Mission: Find Out What The Heck Is Going On In This City Anyway) and we’re along with them for the ride! So grab your glass face shields, pin up your skirts (if you’re wearing them) and prepare yourself for a ride on the highstorm for this week’s reread.
Originally, we’d planned on doing two chapters this week, but there was more we wanted to talk about than could comfortably fit, so we pared it down to one. If you read two chapters to prepare for this week, we apologize! Now you’re ahead of the game for next week, though…
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. No Cosmere spoilers this week, folks. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHEN: 1174.1.10.1 (the second day after Shallan and Kaladin returned to Urithiru from Thaylen City)
WHERE: In the air on the way to Kholinar
Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin, Elhokar, Skar, Drehy, and three of Shallan’s followers are riding the storm towards Kholinar. When they arrive, Kaladin immediately notices that the city is still under Alethi rule, but there’s something dark and wrong with the palace—or more accurately, the oathgate platform beside it.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Winds and Oaths
AA: The title actually comes from a line that was removed after the beta; it was something Kaladin thought Syl would say if he asked her why his powers worked in a certain way. Pretty relevant to the chapter anyway, wouldn’t you say?
L: I guess? No one does too much talking about oaths in this particular chapter.
AA: True, that. Lots of wind, though!
Heralds
Jezrien
AA: Presumably for the Windrunner who pretty much does all the doing in this chapter!
Icon
Banner and Spears, indicating Kaladin’s POV
Epigraph
I worry about my fellow Truthwatchers.
—From drawer 8-21, second emerald
L: Well, this is ominous, especially given what we know (or don’t know) about Renarin and his corrupted spren. Was this corruption something that was happening even back before the Recreance?
AA: Welp. If only we knew, eh? If these records are, as I think, approaching the time of the Recreance within a decade or so, it’s certainly possible. I wonder if Sja-anat has to have some level of cooperation from the spren she changes.
Oh, I’d also like to point out that this is one of a handful of epigraphs that confirm some identity questions. We already have the gemstone/Herald connection as a general Vorin tradition in the Ars Arcanum chart, but several of the epigraphs specifically mention an Order—and every one of them uses the gemstone associated with that order. So, hey. Vorin tradition maintained some things accurately.
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Oathbringer
AP: I read this differently. If it were approaching the time of the Recreance, on which I agree with Alice, then the Truthwatchers may have seen it coming. It sounds like there were factions among the Truthwatchers, and how they handled this foreknowledge likely fed into the Vorin superstitions about predicting the future. Something happened to make that very taboo.
Stories & Songs
A cloud hung over the palace, a darkness that—at first glance—seemed like nothing more than a trick of the light. Yet the feeling of wrongness persisted, and seemed strongest around a portion at the east of the palace complex. This flat, raised plaza was filled with small buildings. The palace monastery.
The Oathgate platform.
L: So it begins. I forget, Alice, which of the Unmade is chilling in the Oathgate again? It’s not the Heart of the Revel, that one’s in the city proper, right?
AA: It’s a little difficult to distinguish them at this point, I think. Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel, is certainly affecting the entire city, but it appeared to be centered on the Oathgate platform. We’re not really given much about Sja-anat’s specific location, but she’s been affecting the spren all over the city, and then she makes contact with Shallan up at the palace a couple of times. For now, though, I’ll go with that darkness being Ashertmarn’s presence more than Sja-anat.
L: Interesting though that this Unmade doesn’t appear to be All Bad, yet it’s still giving off the Dark Vibes. Can the Unmade change their natures, or are they forever doomed to be unnatural and dark?
AA: It’s my opinion, which fits but isn’t proven by the text, that Ashertmarn is too much a part of Odium to change—if it had enough “mind” left to change at all. Its nature is sheer gluttony—consumption for the sake of the consumption itself, not because the thing being consumed is needed or even wanted. Sja-anat, on the other hand…
L: Yeah, she’s the one I was thinking of. I just have trouble remembering their names; they’re all quite a mouthful!
AA: We’ll cover her more as we reach the end of Part Three, but it appears that she may have been, well, less completely Unmade than the others? At least, it seems that she may remember what she was before she was Unmade, and is trying to figure out how to get back to being that.
AP: I am really intrigued by Sja-anat, and the implications for the Radiants, namely Renarin. But I agree that Ashertmarn is definitely all bad. And isn’t our Unmade count in Kholinar actually 3? The one in the palace itself corrupting the Queen is yet another separate entity, Yelig-nar. That one is associated with darkness as well.
L: Oh jeez, I’d completely forgotten about Yelig-nar.
AA: True. He doesn’t seem to have as much effect until someone swallows a gemstone to give him a body, so I wasn’t thinking of him as a possible source for the darkness. Could be, though.
L: Maybe it’s just a side effect of all of them being in such close proximity rather than one creating the darkness more than the others. Which makes me wonder… what’s pulling them all here? Is it just that this is the seat of most power in the world right now, or did one show up here and the others gravitate towards it? Are they under orders from Odium, or making their own decisions?
AP: I figured they were there under orders, as a way to assist the Voidbringer takeover of the city.
Relationships & Romances
How does she smile like that? Kaladin wondered. During their trip through the chasms together, he’d learned her secrets. The wounds she hid. And yet … she could simply ignore them somehow. Kaladin had never been able to do that. Even when he wasn’t feeling particularly grim, he felt weighed down by his duties or the people he needed to care for.
Her heedless joy made him want to show her how to really fly. She didn’t have Lashings, but could still use her body to sculpt the wind and dance in the air…
He snapped himself back to the moment, banishing silly daydreams.
L: I have to admit, I really love this. I still think that Kaladin could do better—not that Shallan’s a bad person, just that I don’t feel like their personalities mesh very well in the long run. If they had wound up together, I think he would have been depending on her for a lot of his emotional well-being, which isn’t a good basis for a relationship. Two broken people together don’t always make a whole. BUT. This is really sweet, and I love that he wants to give her joy. I love that he looks at her and sees hope, and I’m hoping that this resolves into a beautiful and supportive friendship once all these leftover romantic feelings are overcome.
AA: This scene stirs up such mixed emotions for me. It really is beautiful, and if they weren’t each so messed up individually, you can certainly see how a romance could develop. But I agree—Shallan is just not the right person for Kaladin. Not only would he depend on her for his emotional well-being, but that’s exactly the kind of dependency that led to the creation of her multiple personalities in the first place. At twelve years old, she couldn’t let herself be the terrified, traumatized girl she really was; she had to be an innocent little sister who teased and entertained her brothers into some semblance of normalcy. Facing her truths caused some other issues, but at least it helped her start to break out of that persona. Getting in a romantic relationship with someone who depended on her in much the same way? Not good. Very not good.
L: Compare this to her relationship with Adolin. She seems to be able to be more honest with him, because he’s not relying on her for anything. Yeah, she does still have a tendency to fall into Radiant with him sometimes, but for the most part they complement one another much, much better.
AP: Count me as a third who is glad they did not end up together. I think that they make much better friends than romantic partners. Separate from that, I do love that absolute joy that Shallan shows here, the description is great. Even if skirts and wind aren’t a great combo. Those must be some industrial strength pins!
“Think?” Syl said. … “I know. Don’t think I don’t spot you stealing looks.” She smirked.
L: Syl… not helping. (She’s just trying to help in her own way, I know, but… more on this in the next section.)
AA: I have a vague recollection of wanting to smack her upside the head. “Not this again!!”
AP: Super agree, Syl is a terrible matchmaker.
AA: Just for fun, I looked back at the beta comments. There were a lot of “I hate love triangles!” comments from… some of us.
“My wife and child are inside,” Elhokar said. “They might be in danger.”
You didn’t seem to worry much about them during six years away at war, Kaladin thought.
L: Soooooo Kaladin’s got a bit of a point, but he’s also being a smidge unfair. Elhokar wasn’t worrying about them because he assumed that they were safe, in the seat of his power, protected by an entire country and whatever he’d left of his army. But now that they’ve lost contact and there are Dark Clouds hanging over the palace and rumors about civil unrest and invaders on the doorstep? Yeah. NOW he’s worried.
AP: It’s definitely unfair, but it reflects Kal’s ideas about soldiers in general.
L: Sort of? Kaladin didn’t spend too much time worrying about his own family while he was away at war, until he heard that they might be in danger. He was focused on keeping the people around him who were in direct danger alive. It’s a little hypocritical of him, but then… that’s realistic for his character, too. At least he usually realizes it when it’s pointed out to him and amends his world-view…
Bruised & Broken
Her hair streamed behind her, a stark auburn red. She flew with arms outstretched and eyes closed, grinning. Kaladin had to keep adjusting her speed to keep her in line with the others, as she couldn’t resist reaching out to feel the wind between her freehand fingers, and waving to windspren as they passed.
L: It makes me really happy to see Shallan so relaxed, especially given all the turmoil we know is going on in her head right now.
AP: I definitely love this description. She is able just be herself for a few hours instead of putting on a persona.
“Come on…” Syl said, zipping around to his other side. “You need to be with people to be happy, Kaladin. I know you do.”
“I have my bridge crew.”
L: I really like this, because honestly? No one should have to depend on romantic love to make them happy.
AP: Amen, sister, preach!
L: No one should have to depend on others for their own happiness at all. They need to learn how to make themselves happy first and foremost. Syl doesn’t seem to get this—and I wonder why. She obviously wants the best for Kaladin, and that’s really sweet. But she’s not human. She hasn’t had human life experiences or the wisdom that comes with them. I think that pushing him into a romantic relationship, at least right now, could actually do more harm than good. That being said, the second part of this is what really made me stop and think. “I have my bridge crew.” These are people who depend on him; his responsibility. Kaladin seems to be happiest when he’s making the people around him happy, and if you’re going to depend on others for your own happiness, I think that’s the healthiest way to do so. Bring joy to others, and let it instill joy in your own heart.
AP: I think this definitely shows that the spren are not infallible. Syl doesn’t understand the full range of human emotions and how love for friends can be just as meaningful as romantic love. Kal absolutely has a support system. He doesn’t need a partner just for the sake of being partnered.
AA: That’s another thing I love about this magic system and the way it breaks expectations. We sort of expect the spren to be perfect and all-knowing, because they’re all spirit-y, but they really are fallible creatures too. They’re limited by their perceptions just as much as any human.
“All this,” Adolin said, amused, “to justify your sense of humor, Shallan?”
“My sense of humor? No, I’m merely trying to justify the creation of Captain Kaladin.”
AA: It occurs to me that Shallan’s sometimes sophomoric humor has an interesting source. As we saw her in her flashbacks, this kind of humor was perfect for her to bring her teenage brothers together and to some semblance of sanity. In the context of their family life, it really worked to take their minds off the worst things and remind them that not everything in the world was quite so grim.
Now, when she’s with adults in a very different situation, sometimes it’s a bit… flat, and sophomoric in this context.
L: Humor is so difficult, because it’s all subjective, really. What one person finds hilarious, the next can find utterly stupid. Shallan’s jokes don’t often hit for me, but when they do, they hit hard. Understanding the psychological reasoning behind them gives them new weight—so even if I don’t think they’re funny, I can at least understand why she’s making them.
AP: Why things are funny is such a fascinating field of research. So much is based on shared experience and cultural touchstones. I’m a bit of a comedy nerd, and I love to listen to how comedians talk to each other. The topics they riff on are so transgressive as they try to see what works and what doesn’t. This is flat for me because she is punching down, making a joke at the expense of a soldier of a lower social class.
L: Oh wow. It had bothered me and I couldn’t put my finger on why, but you’ve absolutely hit the nail on the head here.
AP: Conversely, her takedowns and snide comments at ladies in her own class hit better, but give her a bad reputation. She’s not good at finding a balance. She wants to be clever and witty, but keeps falling short. I want to see if it improves as she starts to have more of a shared history with these people, like her attempt at a callback about boots.
L: It works better for me when she mixes her insults with quips about herself. I remember reading once that when you’re writing a roast speech, you should be making fun of yourself at least as much as the person you’re roasting. It indicates humility and that this is in good-natured fun. Sometimes, Shallan’s insults come across as just plain hurtful because she doesn’t do this.
AA: Hmm. While the external fact is that she’s “punching down” socially, I don’t think she’s likely to see it that way. From the first time they met, with Kaladin on horseback and Shallan shoved into pretending she’s a Horneater princess wearing slippers in the Frostlands, she’s felt at a disadvantage. She may be a Radiant, but so is he—and he’s so outwardly confident, while she’s so inwardly uncertain. It’s an interesting contrast in perceptions.
It’s so easy to forget that we know so much more about her internal state than the others do. Kaladin knows a little of it, and thinks he understands, but he doesn’t. Adolin hardly knows any of it yet. While I fully agree that her humor is more enjoyable to read when she mixes in the jabs at herself, I suspect that her self-perception (worthless, incapable, source of trouble) interferes with her ability to realize how she comes across (arrogant, spoiled, rude). So, yeah, her humor fails a lot, but when you look at where she’s coming from, you understand why it’s off.
(I’ve heard a lot of people say that Sanderson is just not very good at this sort of humor, but I think he hit it pretty accurately. Shallan’s humor is flat because of who she is internally, not because it’s badly written, if that makes sense.)
Squires & Sidekicks
AA: As noted above, the team consists of Elhokar, Adolin, Kaladin and Shallan, plus two of Kaladin’s squires (Skar and Drehy) and three of Shallan’s… maybe squires? Maybe just sidekicks? (We’ll talk about that in later chapters.)
L: I love Skar and Drehy.
AA: I think it’s super fun that these are the same two that were Adolin’s protectors during the battle of Narak, and now they’re here to protect him again. While Skar, at least, isn’t the most advanced of the squires (by far!), these two were always among the best of the fighters in Bridge Four. Makes sense to bring them.
L: Same. Kaladin probably noticed that they got along well with Adolin (although really, who doesn’t, aside from assholes like Sadeas) and chose them for this purpose.
AA: Then there’s the callback to a certain conversation Shallan had with Elhokar back in Chapter 51. Kaladin is, apparently, slightly confused and irritated about why Shallan is bringing two unsavory ex-soldiers and a handmaid, and seems slightly miffed that Elhokar had insisted without giving any reason.
L: It’s a fair reason to be miffed. He’s leading this mission and is responsible for the lives under his care, and now he has what he views as three people who can’t defend themselves. This is a military mission with quite a lot of danger involved, and so far as he knows, these three have no skills to lend to the mission. They’re liabilities. I’d be annoyed, too.
AA: I would too, and in a sense Shallan cheated to do it. She was looking for a way to get out of Urithiru—away from Jasnah, and away from the Ghostbloods, both of whom were getting a bit insistent in their demands on her—and the idea of going with the group to Kholinar would certainly do that. She went and offered her Lightweaving skills and her best spies to Elhokar at the end of Chapter 51, and he was convinced that it made sense.
L: And, proving once again that she is not a soldier and not always the best example of a champion of common sense, she neglects to tell the mission’s commanding officer about the special skills of the people she’s insisted come along.
AA: Heh. Well, she did talk to the king…
L: Let’s be honest here, we all know who’s really in charge of this mission. Shallan went over Kaladin’s head and it was a dick move.
AA: I’m not entirely sure it was intentionally so, though. She was thinking in different terms—as you say, she’s not a soldier!
L: Yeah, I do agree with you there. I think this is one of Shallan’s biggest issues—she’s so caught up in herself sometimes that she fails to empathize with the people around her. (Interesting, given that her split personalities have been forcing her to put herself into the heads of “other” people…)
AA: The question of “who is in charge” will come up next week even more, and it’s funny to think about. You’ve got the king, who is ostensibly the highest-ranking person there. (Plus he’s a Shardbearer.) You’ve got the highprince-in-training, who has been leading the Kholin armies for several years. (Plus he’s a Shardbearer.) You’ve got the Knight Radiant Windrunner, the only one who can fly them around and the one most experienced in leading small-sortie squads. (Plus he has a living Shardblade.) And then you’ve got the Lightweaver who doesn’t quite get command structures, or the concept of how a team really works…
L: But also has a living Shardblade. ::laughs:: Shardblades all around!
AA: I think she fails to comprehend both her own importance, and the responsibility for her safety that the others are shouldering by her very presence.
L: If there’s one thing that Kaladin is always thinking about, it’s personal and professional responsibility.
AA: Which brings us full circle… Kaladin is really annoyed at having people foisted on him by regal fiat! (And no, I don’t blame him at all for being annoyed!)
Places & Peoples
Kholinar’s defining feature, of course, was the windblades: curious rock formations that rose from the stone like the fins of some giant creature mostly hidden below the surface. The large curves of stone glittered with red, white, and orange strata, their hues deepened by the rain. He hadn’t realized that the city walls were partially constructed on the tops of the outer windblades.
L: These are really cool and there’s something more to them than meets the eye. The strata appears similar to that in Urithiru, so presumably Stormlight can power them somehow—but to do what? Do they spin around the city maybe in a defensive maneuver? Can they maybe… spread out and join together, forming a shell to protect it?
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AP: I had never considered that they might be able to move! That could be disastrous since parts of the city are built on them.
L: Yeah, that was my immediate thought…
AA: That would be fun—for a certain definition of the term. I suspect they’re quite solid and immovable, but I’m pretty sure they were constructed using some of the same techniques as Urithiru. If they are defensive, I’d almost expect them to be able to put up shields of “solidified air” between them. I’m imagining a combination of Windrunner and Stoneward powers, I think. Honestly, I expect them to turn out to just be rocks shaped by Surgebinding using cymatics to guide the process, but it’s fun to speculate on what else they could be. Especially with that strata comment.
Weighty Words
Partial Lashings worked by making part of the person’s weight forget the ground, though the rest continued to be pulled downward.
L: Just taking note of this because I always find the explanations of the Lashings to be interesting. Also I like that Sanderson doesn’t use the word gravity, as it seems that this law of nature hasn’t been discovered here on Roshar yet.
AP: I love the “how the magic works” tidbits.
Appealing/Arresting/Appraising/Absorbing Artwork
L: I always love seeing these city maps; they’re so different from the world ones. For the next few chapters I’ll be switching to using this map (rather than the world map) to document our heroes’ journey through the city, as much as I’m able to, anyway.
Also… is it just me, or is the city of Kholinar shaped like a glyph, a bit?
AA: I hadn’t thought about it, but now that you say it… Given the symmetrical nature of glyphs and the equally symmetrical nature of cymatics, it makes sense, though. I really hope we get to learn about the origin of the windblades, along with the other cities that have cymatic shapes to them.
Well, I think you can see why we decided to go with a single chapter this week after all. We will tackle Chapter 61 next week, and it promises to be just as full of juicy stuff to discuss!
AA: I’d like to throw in one more housekeeping moment here. Or perhaps a grandmotherly lecture. Or something. It has come to my attention that there are a number of people who are reluctant to comment because of perceived hostility from people who disagree with them (or who purportedly know “more” than them). While I won’t go as far as “If you can’t say something nice don’t say anything at all,” I would strongly remind you all that our opinions are our opinions, and we’re all discussing a work of fiction.
L: Alice might not be willing to, but I’ll go that far. If you can’t say something politely and respectfully, don’t say anything at all. There are plenty of ways to express a differing opinion on matters while still being respectful of the OP. We’re all fans, we all love this story and these characters. There’s no reason to flame anyone else.
AA: It is 100% sure that, given human nature, we will each have a different perspective. I’m asking you all, as nicely but firmly as I can, to do two things: One, express your opinion as graciously as you can without going into bizarre contortions to do so. Two, accept the comments of others as graciously as you would like them to accept yours, realizing that sometimes we don’t say things as clearly as we’d like.
All in all, be as kind as you can and give other people the benefit of the doubt. Okay? Okay.
L: Be the Knights Radiant I know you all can be. Make Kaladin proud of you.
Alice is getting soggier by the day. The Weeping is firmly upon the Pacific Northwest, and she looks forward to seeing the sun again in a few months.
Lyndsey is heading down to NYC this weekend to hit up the Garment District. What cosplay is she working on now?! Follow her work on Facebook to find out.
Aubree is back from the holidays and entirely too full of cheese.
I feel like the windblades are going to be important, but I definitely do not know specifically how. I like the suggestion that they could use wind to make more wall between them. I wonder if maybe when powered they could just create an area of calm that ignores the high storm entirely.
Is it just that this is the seat of most power in the world right now, or did one show up here and the others gravitate towards it? Are they under orders from Odium, or making their own decisions?”
The thing is, we have to remember that the effect of at least Ashertmarn and Yelig-nar were at least happening in the second book. The food was already being collected and the queen was listening to the ardent’s to do so and to ignore the people. While we know that the one that caused the death quotes and the thrill were slowly moving to the east, I find it hard to believe that Odium alreadly had it in plan to invade Kholinar even than. Maybe it was just a precaution and to be a distraction, but there seems to be a case of preumptive planning here. I know he likes to do that, but it seems kind of odd that things already seemed to be in motion before they could possibly be in motion
Oh crud, I forgot to add one more thing, about the squires! Do not forget that one of Shallan’s henchpeople is GAZ. you know, one of Kaladin’s best example of how how to act like a person. I’m sure that sting’s as well.
In fairness to Elhokar…Navani just returned to the Shattered Plains from Kolinar…what…at most a year ago (I think), and said the Queen was doing just fine. So until communications cut off after the Everstorm started, I don’t think he’s been ignoring trouble for 6 years.
That said, it may be that the trouble in Kolinar started right after she left, or it was so subtle at first that she didn’t realize it.
The Grammar Nazi in me wonders if “were” should have been used instead of “was,” as I feel the related subject is the windblades and not Kholinar. Opinions?
In any case, my opinion is that the windblades were created using Soulcasting.
@5 the subject of the sentence is feature. “The feature was the windblades”
@5, @6 though thinking about it, perhaps it should have been “Kholinar’s defining feature[s], of course, [were] the windblades…”
The map has South on the top. I wonder why. Is that the standard for Roshar or maybe just Vorin cartographers? Or maybe just for this map because of its particular layout?
I like this chapter as it marks the return of Adolin within the main narrative even if it is in small dose.
So my thoughts on this chapter, after reading the book twice, I do think Kaladin commenting on how happy and warm inside seeing Shallan smile makes him is foreshadowing for how he ends the books realizing she does for him what Tien once did. Throughout this book, we see Kaladin having this “positive reaction” to being near Shallan without being able to pin-point what it means precisely. On one side he has Syl who keeps prompting to try to develop a relationship with her (to the expanse of Adolin, but Syl hates him: it makes me wonder if Syl have had the same attitude had Shallan been engaged to someone she actually likes), on the other side he has Shallan herself sending mixed signals, so he hardly knows what to think nor what he actually feels. He might have had a serious relationship before, it was a long time ago and he is *still* a young man. So here we have Kaladin wondering about those feelings which, upon first glance, seem very akin to “romantic interest”, though he later realizes they were “something else”.
I know a lot of readers didn’t enjoy how scenes such as this one didn’t lead on to a Kaladin/Shallan romance, but I found it interesting to broach the topic of feelings towards another person without them needing to be romantic. It was refreshing to have Kaladin feels this growing happiness at seeing Shallan smile despite her problems without needing it to turn into angst-filled romance.
And yes, count me in those who find Shallan and Adolin complement each other… better. Shallan is willing to be supportive for Adolin, she allows him to make his own decision, merely offering counsel and support while he is willing to let her be all that she can be. There is also an odd symmetry/mirror in between their inner issues: somehow Shallan needing to create alternate version of herself to deal with reality does bear some amount of ressemblance to Adolin needing to pretend he is a man he never was in order to meet expectations others have placed on him. If Shallan’s actions happen out of an inability to deal with her quite gruesome past, Adolin’s come out of need to have others approve of him, love him and think he is worthy.
Considering the fact I have wondered why Elhokar didn’t seem to care nor think about his family back in Kholinar, I truly appreciated Kaladin making the comment no matter what else it may imply.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Skar and Drehy attached themselves to the serve of Highprince Adolin as prime protectors or something along the lines…
No comments on Adolin being flight sick? This was the highlight of the chapter for me! Previously, we have seen Kaladin starting to fly people around and, when it happened, I was surprised at how everyone seem to take to it in an instant, how they all loved it and it felt…. unrealistic. I mean, there ought to be people who’d hate it… Then we got this chapter and bam, Brandon tosses in one character who can’t stomach it and it is Adolin.
He can’t fly. He can’t control the wind shifts. He can’t keep his stomach together during the flying. He literally throws up along the way. Seeing how I now get nauseous in rides, I felt sorry for Adolin to have gone through what must have felt like a never-ending roller-coaster with sharp spins and drops.
I enjoyed reading Adolin not being good at something. I want more of this.
So first, really appreciate the inclusion of the world maps as well as the city maps! Again gives a better sense of where we stand in relation to the action.
Second, I think the Unmade are under Odium’s orders in the city due to Sja-anat’s comment on how Odium commanded her to “enlighten” the Oathgate.
@2 Steven Robert Hedge
Personally I disagree. We do know that void spren have been hanging out putting things into place prior to the everstorm. The void spren that spoke to Venli is a prime example of this. We also do know that Odium has a better handling on future sight than Honor did. We also know that Odium has been grooming Dalinar to be his Champion since long before the Everstorm. We also know that Odium confirmed he had the Thrill hang out in Alethkar for so many years on purpose to prepare them for the moment when he took them over at the Battle of Thayla. So for myself, I think it is plausible to think that Ashtermarn, Yelig-nar, and Sja-anat were sent to Kholinar with Odium’s intention. But I can see how you can feel otherwise
@@.-@ FSS
I agree
@5 Austin
I would agree with you regarding the soulcasting if it wasn’t for the strata. Soulcasting maintains the form of whatever it changes, so for instance if you carved a wooden statue and then soulcast it to marble, you would still see the wooden waves. So it could be that they carved the giant windblades from wood, and then soulcast them to rock, but I think potentially using cohesion and tension could get the same result with less direct physical labor. Can’t wait to find out how it was done!
@11 – True, I didn’t think about cohesion and tension. That makes more sense. Though I wonder if the earth could be manipulated to such an extent. Maybe if many Radiants worked on it together?
@12 Austin
Very true. The elsecallers and lightweavers could soulcast the air into like a lattice, that the stonewards, willshapers, and bondsmiths could then shape the rock to cover and harden. The windrunners and skybreakers could infuse it with gravitation to potentially get the effect Alice posits the windblades would create if activated. Hmmm makes me wonder what other surges could come into play!
A nice chapter. I like the simile of the highstorm being “like a country where [Kaladin] was a foreign dignitary. He retained some measure of respect, but he also lacked real authority.” I like the descriptions of the strangely beautiful high highstorm, and the windblades.
I liked Shallan’s philosophizing about bad art and the value of mistakes, though she hasn’t come to value her own mistakes in that way, as we’ll see. I was surprised when she claimed it was a joke about Kaladin, especially since I usually recognize — and nearly always enjoy — her humor. She might not out-snark Lift, and I’m miffed that they didn’t snark-off in this book, but she’s good at it.
And we arrive in Unmade Central! Whoohoo! My liking for most of the Unmade is entirely unsurprising. I nearly always go for the most monstrous beings in a story. Especially when they start divvying up the deadly sins, though I know the correlation here is very incomplete. We get a pure spirit of gluttony here, at least, and that’s the most important one to me.
I love the face shields! After reading Words of Radiance, I wrote Brandon Sanderson a very annoying letter stating that I knew everything about falling through the atmosphere because I had once gone skydiving years ago. I then pointed out that, Words of Radiance never mentioned just how much the wind hurts when you free fall at terminal velocity. I was really surprised and impressed when I received a kind and good-humored response. I was further surprised, impressed, and humbled to find face shields in Oathbringer. I’ll never know if my letter caused the face shields or if Brandon came by it some other way. But I am impressed that a busy, successful author would take time to learn small details like this when he totally doesn’t need to.
Regarding the strata, I find this WoB curious:
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
On your Tor.com release of Oathbringer, I made a comment, it was about the Windblades being powered by Urithiru. Would that be barking up the right tree or the wrong tree?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
That is a, barking up the wrong tree. Good question. I don’t think I’ve seen that question before.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Even [Alice?] brings it up in the next chapter.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Did she? No, that’s a false correlation, the strata are more just there because of how Roshar works, than they are to make you draw a parallel there.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
And only Shallan and others can really see the colors *inaudible*.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Mmmm. That is not a false correlation, right there.
source
L: Yeah, I do agree with you there. I think this is one of Shallan’s biggest issues—she’s so caught up in herself sometimes that she fails to empathize with the people around her.
So this is pretty true, but to be fair I think you could apply that to pretty much all of the our other official Knights’ Radiants as well. Considering what we know happens towards the end of the book, I’m pretty sure Shallan learns a more than hard lesson about this.
@14 AeronaGreenjoy
Totally with you on the excitement on the Unmade. Like you said, I know there is not a direct link to the 7 deady sins, but it is fun to try and link them up anyway. I feel like Re-Shephir would be Envy as her and her midnight essences copy other forms. Nergaoul I think would be easily Wrath. The next two are probably reaching, but I feel Yelig-nar would be greed because he is all about consuming his host and gaining control, wanting more and more. Also the two we have seen use him were greedy for power and that caused them to disregard the danger he poses of consuming them. Sja-anat I feel would be pride, because she terms corrupting the spren as “enlightening” and she views them as her children with Pride. Again know sounds like a total reach, and I know there is not a direct correlation, but still fun to think on :)
@15 Steven
That is awesome! I love how Brandon always tries to put as much realism into his worlds as he can, and the chance he could be taking fan feedback on that, to add further depth to his worlds is great!
@16 Bird
Awesome WoB! So that could potentially mean the Sibling potentially powering the other cities is out. I think the door is still open for it to be surge powered, but if the Sibling is associated with Urithiru (which we do not know), and Urithiru does not power the other cities, then potentially the sibling does not power the other cities by extension. Still so much we do not know! When is book 4 coming! lol
Steven @2 & 3 – There’s so much we don’t know about the Unmade! While it’s true that at least Ashertmarn was already present in Kholinar during WoR, that’s not a very long time ago. It is, however, prior to the Everstorm and the return of the Fused, so there’s that. My best guess is that Alethkar is a particular target for Odium’s creatures because it always has been. Back in the long-ago, Alethela was the kingdom tasked to keep the arts of war alive, and would logically have been the center of military training. That might be why things seem to be focused there?
Also, Gaz is one of Shallan’s men, but he didn’t come on this trip (wisely!). She brought Vathah and Red, along with Ishnah their “maid” spy-master.
Gepeto @9 – Good point about foreshadowing “Shallan does for Kaladin what Tien once did.” I hadn’t thought about that, because these scenes mostly turn my mind toward love triangles and how much I hate them. :) Also, I completely forgot to comment on Adolin’s airsickness. I even had that section highlighted, because the whole scene was priceless. *sigh* I never do manage to cover everything I want…
Steven @15 – I also liked the details about the face shields, and also that Shallan was the one who, having used one early in WoR, introduced them to this team. I suspect that the Radiants weren’t particularly bothered by the wind, since they can just constantly heal, but I agree – it was good to see the others given some protection.
Bird @16 – Hmm. Now I’ll have to go back and see what I’ve said about the windblades. I listed to that audio, and it certainly sounds like he said “Alice” – and he was talking about discussion on Tor about the Oathbringer release, which I assume was the early-release chapters…
For what it’s worth, I’m almost positive that both the windblades and Urithiru were created by Stonewards, probably working in concert with other Radiants. I’m just not quite sure how the cymatics plays into it – if they used the pitch made by wind across something-or-other to make it easier to draw the stone into the shapes they wanted, or what. I do hope we get an explanation someday.
@19 Wetlandernw
I wonder if the reason Gaz was left behind in Urithiru is Brandon wanted to keep him in the background for a little bit as he bonds a cryptic and becomes a radiant. My theory is that Gaz is directly bonding a cryptic and becoming a radiant, while Vathah is going the squire route. This would allow Sanderson to show that both ways are possible. That you do not need to become a squire to be inspired by a Radiant and bond your own spren. Wonder if Gaz’s eye would grow back if he becomes a radiant, or would he view his missing eye like Kaladin views his scars?
That is a good point about cymatics. I wonder if that has any connection to Timbre pulsing to communicate with Venli. I originally assumed it was Timbre communicating in Venli’s language, but maybe that is the default for that spren, and it hints at how its surge works through vibrations. I am glad book 4 is the willshaper book so we get to see those surges in action!
Aren’t there caves in the Windblades with the metal that blocks magic? Maybe that prevents the Odium spren from animating the rock to form the rock giants. A city wall that the enemy can turn into a weapon against you isn’t much use.
Why shouldn’t Odium have made plans before the characters realized what was going on? It took Venli a while to get to the point where she could summon the new storm, there is no reason that Odium couldn’t plan ahead to what he will do when it is available.
Adolin isn’t the only one who doesn’t like flying. There is a bridgeman who is afraid of heights.
Windrunners probably don’t need to protect their face because they can form a shield of windspren like Kaladin did to protect the parsh’s captured humans in the Highstorm.
I find Shallan’s humor at times, especially toward Kaladin, to be denigrating and small minded. I personally tend to avoid people like that but there is no denying that “humor” is often used to demean and belittle others to make yourself or your group feel superior. I’m guessing that is what Shallan’s “mean girl” snark is all about.
There were many over on 17th SHARD that felt the trip when Kaladin flew Shallan to Thaylen City was odd in that it was just glossed over. It seemed a perfect time for them to have some bonding time but nothing is said about it. Certainly she would have reacted the same way as on the trip to Kholenor.
I’m with those that had a gut “I don’t like triangles” reaction when Kaladin makes his comments about Shallan.
Even if the Queen hadn’t comsumed Yelig-nar yet, she was already eating the cookies from the Dark side before our heroes show up. Whether she was always like that or Odium had a hand in it, she was not a nice person.
@19: Ah, how could you skip over your highlighted section of the text! It was priceless!!! Joking aside, I did think Adolin inability to withstand the wobbling while flying would foreseen similar issues when… sailing. I was surprised when he had no issues with the boat as wobbling on the sea, wobbling in the sky, same movement, same nauseous reaction.
On the side note, despite being padded, I did think the “non-Radiant/squire” members of the team should have been shivering with cold. It must have been… cold up there and a mere “padded uniform” doesn’t strike me as nearly warm enough.
I do think this Kaladin/Shallan scene works hand in hand with Kaladin’s Tien’s scene later in the book, the one where he realizes what he feels towards Shallan isn’t romantic much to the utter dismay of many readers. In the scene at hand, I did think it highlighted a upcoming friendship bonding more than anything else: she makes him smile, she puts him in a good place, much like a good friend would. Male/female platonic friendship so seldom get explored.
@22: I too saw the comments where readers were disappointed in not having read the Kaladin/Shallan trip to Thaylenah. My impressions were many thought it would have contained additional romantic tension thought I honestly never read much of this within their shared narrative.
My thoughts are thus, if Brandon didn’t show it, then it must because nothing important happened during this trip which couldn’t be summarized with 2-3 sentences.
Maybe it’s just me, but I felt that among other possible reasons why Shallan made that joke about Kaladin was that maybe she was subconsciously overcompensating? I mean, when Shallan likes Adolin and Veil likes Kaladin and all three of them were together there, with Shallan in charge over Veil … Or I might just imagine things. I probably am.
Mark me down among those who are glad that Shallan married Adolin instead of Kaladin. Shallan and Adolin really are much better together, and I like Adolin very, very much, too. I really like the Tien connection, and that Kaladin and Shallan can be good friends without any triangles to mess things up (and especially that Kal and Adolin will also be such good friends). I hope Kal will eventually find somebody, too, somebody worthy of him.
I think it is reasonable that it was Drehy and Skar that got taken along since, as pointed out, they are among the best fighters; though it really is cool that it’s the same two who are such good buddies with Adolin now.
Thank you, Steven @15 for sharing your story! It was nice to read about the face-shields inspired by the ones used on the ship in WoR, as it was such a small thing on one hand and made it so much more realistic on the other!
I also wanted to answer @3 that it probably stings as Damnation back in Urithiru, but it’s Red and Vathah who were brought along, Kaladin convinced Shallan not to take Gaz, but Alice beat me to it :)
Also also, as a person who gets sea/air/car/you-name-it-sick very easily, thank you, Gepeto, for pointing out the part about Adolin not taking well to flying. Yeah, I felt for him, too.
Edit: blimey! Caught a really embarrassing grammar mistake. At least now jokes are made subconsciously, not unconsciously …
Is it confirmed that each type of radiant bonds to a unique type of spren? I’m wondering because Elhokar is/was bonding a cryptic and, if he could have become a Truthweaver, the epigraph could have been foreshadowing his fate.
I think Syl doesn’t get this because it doesn’t work that way for bonded spren. She owes pretty much her whole life/consciousness to the fact that she is intimately tied to another being. That’s her frame of reference. She sees Kaladin’s happiness being tied to bonding with others. What’s really interesting is that she recognizes that there are needs of his that she can’t fill and is willing to allow a bond of sorts with another.
@20 Scath
Radiant vs Squire – Gaz would then be another example as I’m pretty sure The Lopen was never a squire. The first time he inhales stormlight is when he’s back at war camp, far away from Kal, helping to watch over Elhokar, at the end of WoR.
@20 Scath
I thought Gaz got left behind because of Kaladin. I have a feeling having Gaz along would be the final straw.
@23 Gepeto
Motion sickness and seasickness aren’t the same thing. Motion sickness affects your inner ear, and can be triggered even by the appearance of motion (like a motion machine ride). Seasickness is when there is to much liquid in your stomach, which sloshes around and makes you sick. This can be alleviated by solidifying the contents of your stomach.
I know the difference because I don’t get motion sick, but I do get sea sick.
@21 birgit
Don’t have the chance at the moment to look up the scene, but unless they say that the aluminum is in ore veins (which my vague understanding is that natural aluminum has to be near volcanoes), then it could have been soulcasted there. If that is the case, then that supports all the more your theory that the windblades are used to protect against Odium’s forces, thunderclasts in particular.
edit: it looks like aluminum occurs very rarely in nature, if at all, because it naturally exists as bauxite and requires a very special circumstance combination to produce aluminum.
@25 RogerPavelle
I think the scene where Shallan comments on the mural with spren from each order depicted could be confirmation that each order has its own spren, but I would understand if you feel that is not conclusive enough. I will need to dig to see if there is a WoB on it. It is confirmed from Brandon’s own lips that Elhokar was going to be a lightweaver. Now having said that, it has also been confirmed that multiple orders can be interested in the same person, Ym being a prime example (both edgedancers and truthwatchers)
edit: turns out there is in fact a WoB on it. here you go!
Questioner
Does each specific order have their own spren that they would bond?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. Each order has a spren that is distinctive. All Windrunners come from honorspren.
@27 Sarrow
Excellent point. Hmmm crack pot theory, maybe Gaz is a potential radiant from an order we have not even seen yet? Can’t help it, I love seeing new powers lol
@28 RogerPavelle
Lol my bad, I didn’t recall that, though my point was more from a narrative perspective. That Brandon set up the situation that way, to keep Gaz’s advancing radiancy secret till he is ready to reveal it. But that’s crack pot theory realm. I got nothing concrete to back it up.
I appreciate the WoB about Uruthiru and the Windblades of Kholinar, because the suggestions here that the Windblades could be “powered” really startled me. Intriguing, but sounds like it’s unlikely.
Anyway, this makes sense to me, as my assumption has also been that Kholinar and the other Dawncities/cymatic cities are NOT created via Surgebinding. Because:
1. I assume the Dawncities were the home cities of the Dawnsingers (and thus, Eshonai’s wonder at Kholinar, in the Prologue, where she wonders if her own people could ever create such grandeur, becomes nicely ironic);
2. The Dawnsingers were ‘forbidden’ to use the Surges;
3. Thus, although it’s possible they weren’t ALWAYS forbidden the Surges, I think it most likely the Dawncities weren’t created by Surgebinding.
4. I think it’s an even split whether the special features (like the Windblades) were built by the Singers, or whether the cities were ‘created’ for them by Adonalsium. Their cymatic patterns may mean a supernatural origin like creation by Adonalsium; but it may just be another example of the Singers being naturally ‘in tune’ with Roshar. Cymatics are vibratory phenomena, and thus rhthymic, and the Singers are in tune with Roshar’s Rhthyms, after all…
@24: Fun real life fact, I took my kids to an amusement park, last summer. They had one of those roller coasters which twists and spins in all directions and I thought: “So cool, I loved those as a teenager!”. So huh, I went in it. Needless to say my spine was screaming in agony (while remembering me I wasn’t 15 years old anymore) at how rough the ride actually was and what to say of my poor stomach… I walked out of it looking for the closest garbage can, you know, just in case. Then my kids peer-pressured me to try the “Screaming Eagles”, one of those rides which spins in circle while allowing each cart to add a wave to the motion. Well, I ended up “screaming” at my kid to stop the waving because I was going to be sick. Luckily, I didn’t get sick, but I quickly ushered my laughing children to ride more to my tastes: the choo-choo train which rides across the park………………….
So yeah, Adolin flying from Urithiru to Kholinar made me think of an hours long “screaming eagles” ride without any respite. I really felt sorry for him and his stomach. I think I would have died.
On the side note, I personally think Adolin and Shallan complements each other better and together, they are both stronger. It isn’t just a matter of Shallan having found her “rock” or her “anchor”, it is also a matter of Adolin having found someone who cares about the “real him” and is willing to support him through what he goes through without diminishing it. I ended up the book feeling those two had a lot of room to grow, together, towards better version of themselves, towards accepting who they are and realizing they both are good persons. It is amazing how, when you put it apart, trauma set aside, Shallan and Adolin really have issues which resonates one with another.
@29: Oh thanks! I didn’t know there was a biological difference, I just assumed they were the same which is why I thought it was strange. So Adolin has motion sickness, but not sea sickness. Good think for him amusement parks aren’t a thing on Roshar :-P
Still it was great to see Adolin not own up to a moment and well utterly struggle at something even if it was very short-lived. So huh, like I said above: more please.
I liked how Team Honor tested using lashes to carry the non-flyers by using Shallan as a guinea pig. Way to utilize her ability to save herself from falling. It is also a nice reminder of Shallan’s statement to the soldier at the end of WoR that she could survive the fall when she was looking over the edge of ledge.
I read the Epigraph differently from Alice, Lyndsey and Aubree. We know that these messages were recorded/made when the Orders were going to vacate Urithiru. I took this as more of a simple statement. The Truthwatcher who made this statement believed that for some reason, the Truthwatchers may take leaving Urithiru harder than the other Orders. Maybe my interpretation is too simple. Someday we may learn the answer.
Alice: I think Ashertmarn is more than just gluttony. The people under the influence of Ashertmarn, especially those on the Oathgate, were consumed by excess of not just gluttony (overeating) but excesses of the flesh: rampant sex, dancing/singing and other such partying. It seemed to me to be Woodstock times the 100 – without the mud.
It turns out Kaladin was wrong when he said that he has Bridge 4. Actually, Kaladin has the Parsh he was with for a time. Soon, he will have the Wall Guard. We see that when two of his groups (the Parsh and the Wall Guard) converge on opposite sides of a conflict (an actual battle) Kaladin freezes. He cannot pick a side and is unable to help anybody.
Perhaps had Kaladin not froze, he could have saved Elhokar. Although, to be fair to Kaladin, even had he not froze, I do not think he was physically in a position to stop Moash from killing Elhokar. However, he might have had time to kill Moash before Moash exited stage left.
For what it is worth, I do not like Kaladin. Since his first appearance in WoK, he has annoyed me. He still annoys me after 3 books. I suspect that he will annoy me up through and including the last page of the 10th book (if, of course I live long enough to read it).
Alice, Lyndsey & Aubree: I found your discussion of Shallan’s humor interesting. While I dislike Kaladin (as I noted above), Shallan is my favorite character. I like most, if not all of her jokes. I have large sarcastic streak. I see Shallan’s humor as very sarcastic and snarky. I wish I could come up with the type of puns and quips that Shallan does. I think what we think of her jokes depends upon how we relate to her character. As is true of any character. I find Kaladin annoying. I find more fault with some of his actions that those who like him better. To each their own.
I wrote the above paragraph immediately before I read Alice and Lyndsey’s discussion about whether Shallan should have told Kaladin about why she choose her attendants. As I like Shallan much better than I do Kaladin, I find less fault with Shallan than does Lyndsey. I believe that if the boot were on the other foot (pun intended due to the circumstances of how Shallan and Kaladin first met), Kaladin would not have told Shallan. Kaladin kept his secret (his Windfinder ability) from his commanding officer (Dalinar) for almost all of WoR. Had he told Dalinar what he could do, perhaps Dalinar would have used different strategies in how to approach the other Highprinces about bringing the fight to the Parshendi and/or how Dalinar countered Sadeas’ impact. Our impressions of the characters can often cloud how we view their actions. I am not trying to argue my interpretation is correct and Lyndsey’s is wrong, I am highlighting our interpretations of events are not only shaped by our personalities, they are also shaped by our opinions of characters within the story.
Lynsey: As a non-Kaladin fan, I object to your last statement (“Make Kaladin proud of you”). What about the fans of Shallan, or Adolin, or Dalinar or Jasnah or you get the point? I do not recall seeing any commentator who dislikes Wit. Thus, I think you should edit your last statement to say: “Make Wit proud of you”.
.
I do realize the absurdity of asking people to be civil to each other yet for me to refer to a character who loves to make fun of others as a model of proper behavior.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I believe the kind of motion sickness caused by a disconnect of some kind between what motion the body/inner ear feels and what the eyes see can happen on a boat as well as anywhere else. I’m prone to mild seasickness, though seldom to the point of vomiting, and find it does help to watch the water move as the boat moves. Though I am less prone to being carsick or airsick. Nausea from swishing stomach contents can probably be caused by things like roller coasters too. I don’t personally know, as I avoid roller coasters after one try at them on an old wooden one that only undulated but rattled so badly I screamed in terror the whole time. My upside-down-ness experience is mostly underwater, duck diving while snorkeling or getting badly oriented when scuba diving, and it can be nauseating even on a nearly-empty stomach.
/ramble
@33: Just to play the devil’s advocate, I do not like Wit…
@34: Come to think of it, I do get sea sick. I went on a boat, once, years ago. I hated it. The cursed thing wouldn’t stop… wobbling. I have no trouble with surfing nor snorkeling.
Is there a WoB indicating what house Aesudan comes from? Was she a daughter of one of Gavilar Kholin vassels?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
If Lopen was never a squire, why did he lose his powers when Kaladin went away, twice?
Kaladin is a Radiant. If he saw Moash coming he could have Lashed himself over in a fraction of a second, or Lashed a stone at Moash hard enough to flatten him. Or Lashed Moash’s spear to the ground so hard it was pulled from his fingers.
I also find Kaladin annoying a lot of the time. Too indecisive for me–I find Hamlet-characters irritating. Also, he really needs to tell Bridge Four the truth about Moash already.
Sanderson is good at this stuff. Remember in WoR, Adolin tells Skar and Drehy, “You’re getting a storming raise!”?
Almost exactly one book later, at the end of this book, they get “raised” to the status of Knight Radiant. You can’t tell me that was anything but the Second Oath of the order of Windrunners — that is, the “storming” order.
@Andrew
I didn’t know you disliked Kaladin, our moody bridgeman. I suppose it never came up until now, or I just don’t remember. Since Kal is as close to a typical fantasy protagonist as Sanderson gets he has much love in the fandom. As for me, he’s always going to be near the top even if he did make me wanna punch him in the face for the majority of WOR. Shallan earned top marks from me after WoR after feeling like a throwaway character in WOK. Dalinar frightened me during OB but I still love his character. Szeth was the only one of the Big 4 that I really don’t like. Lyft and Nightblood improved him but he needs external people to really make him interesting.
Re: motion sickness
I don’t get airsick or motion sickness but I do have problems with FPS games and 3D games in general when the camera moves all crazy. I have no real clue what causes this.
Dipping a toe in the ship, I too agree that Kal and Shallan would have made a poor match. Much passion, massive flameout. I think that they would have brought out the worst in each other. Adolin and Shallan bring out the best in each other. Shallan helps Adolin with his confidence, Adolin helps Shallan stay grounded. They heal each other, Kal and Shal only hurt each other.
Re: Windblades
Crackpot theory, I think Dawnshards have something to do with the silver kingdoms, of which ancient Alethela was a part. I’m not sure if they were instrumental in their construction or fit into the city defense against highstorms, I just think they will come into play somehow when everything is said and done.
Hope I have added something to yhe discussion.
@38: Great thoughts on Adolin and Shallan. I agree with everything you have said :-)
On Kaladin: I am ambivalent over our broody bridgeman. Few people realize this, but he was my favorite character in WoK (to the point where I internally rioted when I heard the second book wouldn’t focus on him) and he remained my favorite character up until a third into WoR where Adolin took his place in a contest I am not foreseeing him losing anytime soon. All this to say, I do have some fondness for Kaladin’s character, he once was my favorite character, he once was what made this series for me, but I have to admit, this is no longer the case.
Why? Well, to be honest, while I did enjoy his narrative arc in OB, I finished my re-read thinking it wasn’t distinctive enough from his narrative from previous books to feel refreshing. In other words, Kaladin… always seems stuck within the same narrative and OB didn’t add anything new to the table. His moral conundrum doesn’t sound narratively different than the ones he has had in the past and if the outcome much differs, the process to get there seemed… the same as before?
I don’t know how to phrase it, but I felt Kaladin’s arc was just a re-writing of the narrative he has had in WoK: him finding people who are pitiful and helpless, him shaping them up to be effective, him needing to choose in between people and so on. It lacked… novelty?
So while yes, I still like Kaladin, as a character, I find he seriously needs to be tossed into another kind of narrative, one which will force him to deal with something else than “training helpless victims”. He is a Radiant and a Brightlord now which means he’ll have responsibilities other than training people: give me some of that! Freshened up his narrative so it doesn’t feel like I am reading the same one over and over again,
This being said, I totally understand why some readers have gotten… tired of Kaladin. In a way, I am too, but let’s be honest, he is not disappearing from the narrative anytime soon, so if he is going to keep on playing a big role, then I wish for this role to expend and move onto uncharted territories in order to make it more… engaging?
Little wonder I favor Adolin, with him, everything is still new and refreshing. So far.
@31 chaplainchris1
Well for full disclosure, Brandon said the windblades weren’t powered by Urithiru, and the strata is not indicative of a connection between the two, not that they couldn’t be powered at all, so the potential is still there. Though as you said, it could just as easily be windbreaks built in a unique way.
1. That is an interesting theory, and I agree the irony of Eshonai’s wonder when her people would be the origin would be funny lol.
2. Where is it said that the Dawnsingers were forbidden to use the surges? Genuinely want to know. I do not recall reading that, but I am not too brushed up on dawnsinger lore/theory, so I might have missed it in book. Always love learning something new
3. This coincides with number 2 lol
4. That is an interesting theory as well. That no one terrestrially built the dawn cities. That Adonalsium made them for the dawnsingers. We do know that much of Roshar was made with intentional design and could not have come to be without Adonalsium’s interference.
@33 AndrewHB
Yeah, I have always read the Truthwatcher records as less nefarious than they are. I take it at face value as well, though I do not have anything concrete to add to your thoughts to back it up.
I do think if we are going to ascribe the 7 deadly sins, then I agree that each Unmade can be numerous sins. So Ashertmarn being gluttony, lust, and maybe even greed.
@36 AndrewHB
So I cannot find any WoB indicating Aesudan’s history before marrying Elhokar, but I have found a few that would give some more info about her, and could potentially cause a few theories. Also it seems Elhokar has in fact been back to Kholinar to check on his family every so often, just it is a very long trip. Shown below
Wyndlerunner [PENDING REVIEW]
Queen Aesudan, when we see her in Kholinar, seems to have some knowledge of Gavilar’s doings and his plans. And given Gavilar’s propensity for trying to marry his children to members of secret societies, as seen with Jasnah and Amaram, was Queen Aesudan a member or affiliate of the Sons of Honor?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
RAFO!
Stormlightning [PENDING REVIEW]
Is Kaladin related to Aesudan?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, but it’s not a close relation. A very complex system of things, but yes.
Stormlightning [PENDING REVIEW]
I was just wondering why he knew her…the melody she was humming.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Oh, he did. That is not because they’re related.
Stormlightning [PENDING REVIEW]
So it’s something else?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
It’s something else. I thought that was a sideways question about Kaladin’s mom.
Stormlightning [PENDING REVIEW]
It kinda was, I thought maybe she hummed that and so that’s why he recognized it.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
No, good question.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Can you tell me why Jasnah wanted to potentially assassinate her sister-in-law, the queen?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
She felt that the queen was seeking to usurp power, for one thing, and was reckless for another. And so Jasnah was worried about the safety of the throne.
Wetlander
Prior to becoming pregnant, did [Queen Aesudan] spend most of her time at the Shattered Plains, or in the capital?
Brandon Sanderson
She has spent most of her time in the capital. She obviously has been back and forth. I would say she has spent more time off the Shattered Plains than at it.
Wetlander
But she was at the Shattered Plains, rather than Elhokar going back to the capital?
Brandon Sanderson
He has been back at least once, but it is a long trip.
@37 Carl
I think it was commented later that there is a distance, as well as duration for when the squires lose their powers. So potentially Lopen was a squire at that time, and he was able to draw in stormlight without Kaladin because the duration of Kaladin being away was short enough that Lopen was still able to do so.
Not arguing on whether Kaladin should or should not have stopped Elhokar’s death, but because I love magic systems, I would like to add Szeth showed the ability to “spray” the ground with stormlight of the surge of adhesion from a distance. So theoretically had Kaladin known (not sure if he would theoretically know or not), he could have sprayed the area in front of Moash as he walked up, “gluing” him and the rest of the Parsh to the ground so they could not reach Elhokar. Actually theoretically he could have spread Adhesion all over the ground to stop either sides from reaching each other. Though they could throw spears. Which then if he was fast enough and had enough stormlight, he could theoretically do the lashing that pull objects in flight towards it. But now I am vaguely remembering, weren’t they low on stormlight at the time? Or was it because they were at first trying to hide from the fused? Guess we will see for sure once we reach the chapter lol.
@38 EvilMonkey
Interesting thoughts on the Dawnshards. It is implied in the books by Tanavast that at least the Radiant side once upon a time had access to them when fighting Odium. I personally do not think the Dawnsingers, and the Dawnshards are connected. Just like a Shardbearer can refer to Vessels like Rayse/Honor, or someone with a shardblade/plate like Amaram/Adolin. But I got nothing concrete to back that up.
I would argue that Kaladin in OB is indeed a progression of his character. It is frustrating more than anything because his narrative is based on failure. His hero act works in the first 2 books. But look at OB. He failed to protect the Singers he trained. He failed to protect the king. He failed his mission in Kholinar. He was mostly a liability in Shadesmar. He failed to convince Azure to accompany the group to Thaylen City. He failed to say Oath 4. He failed to avenge his former squadmates. If Rock doesn’t make an impossible shot with a weapon he shouldn’t have been able to use he dies at Amaram’s hands. He even fails to get the girl, bowing out of the triangle altogether. His entire arc in OB is illustrating the fact that what he did to get by previously just isn’t going to cut it anymore. It’s certainly not a rehash of his arc in the first 2 books. We will see a different, more epic Kaladin in the next book, at least we will if he doesn’t die.
Dealing with his new nobility will have to be a key component in that. Coincidentally, it’s the reason I ship Jasnahdin for at least a political marriage and possibly a love match. He provides her with sorely needed empathy, she helps him to grow some of those calluses his dad told him he needed. Jasnah gets someone to watch her back who would never betray her and a partner that won’t be intimidated by her brilliance, Kaladin gets a charge he has no choice but to respect and an avenue to make up for his failure to protect Elkohar. It just makes a lot of sense to me. Something crazy I just thought of. Shallan’s fantasy couple. Think of the hours she’ll spend drawing the dreamy Bridgeman and the perfect Queen, both separately and engaged in the dance of the skyeel. If Brandon were a different kind of author I could see Shallan’s Spiritual Illumination surge leading to some very tawdry scenes as she plays matchmaker.
@41 EvilMonkey
Personally I do not see the need for a relationship between Kaladin and Jasnah on a political nor emotional level. I do not think Jasnah needs to be provided empathy by Kaladin. I feel we see plenty of empathy from Jasnah when we see in her mind, or her personal/private side when she is unguarded. So I feel it is definitely there, just it is not shown overtly. But it is no secret how I feel about the character, so to each their own.
@41: You are right in pointing out Kaladin’s efforts yield a much different result within OB as they did within the previous books (failure instead of success).
What I meant though is, even if the outcome differs, his overall narrative still remains similar to the one he had in WoK. He found two distinct groups of people in dire need of leadership, he stepped in, taught them what he knew which helped them improve, thus forming a new camaraderie. The ultimate outcome strongly differs, I do agree, but in between beginning and ending, his narrative did bear some resemblance to his former one.
Kaladin teaching his skills to a group of miserable hopeless people (the Parshendis) is reminiscent of him attempting the same with Bridge 4 in WoK.
Kaladin bonding with the Tower Guards while sharing a bowl of stew is reminiscent of how Bridge 4 cemented over Rock’s stew back in WoK.
While Kaladin efforts, this time, ends in failure, my thoughts were his overall narrative still remained a walk on a road previously paved. My feelings were thus is wasn’t distinctive enough from his previous narrative to be truly engaging, at least to me. I liked it, I was happy to read it, but… I wasn’t drawn into it like I have been within his previous arcs.
On another note, I will admit I like the fact Jasnah chose not to be romantically entangled with anyone, I like the fact she chose to be this woman who chooses celibacy. Female characters are too often being defined by whom they date, whom they marry and whom they end up with: it is refreshing to have one single drop-dead gorgeous desirable woman who defines herself through other means, by choice. Jasnah could have any man she wants, she could marry anyone she’d pick and yet, she picked no one. I find it compelling.
Hence, I would prefer if her character remained romantically single, but I have to admit the Kaladin/Jasnah ship is quite popular. My thoughts are if Brandon wants to make it happen, I trust he will find an angle to bring it about convincingly, but I am not particularly looking out for it. I find both characters can learn from each others strengths/weaknesses without needing to be romantically involved.
As for Kaladin, I do think he will eventually get romance, but I can’t say it will come out the most often suggested paths. My gut feeling is Brandon has… something planned here.
Just want to chime in on the motion sickness vs seasickness debate. I have what I term “extreme” motion sickness. Like, I’m talking about getting near Death’s door. The one time I rode a roller-coaster as an adult—thinking my severe motion sickness experience from the spinning teacups was just a childhood thing—I became bleach white and felt near dying. The funny thing was I didn’t have to puke. In fact, I had to go into the porta potty and stick my finger down my tongue so I could puke and feel better. My friends had to drive my car home, while I laid down in the back seat, trying to fight off the Reaper. The same thing happened to me on my first plane ride, so I have to take Dramamine every time I fly.
While I have never been on a cruise ship, I have never had any type of problem with any of the boats I’ve been on. I’ve been on ferry boats, big and small, and small fan boats. Nothing.
@@@@@ Scath & Gepeto
I preface my comment with the fact that I love Jasnah. Kaladin is one of my faves as well. The reason why I ship the two, indeed the reason why the ship works for me is that they don’t really need each other. Jasnah is a queen in a patriarchy, a heretic in a hotbed of Vorinism, she’s in a business where perception is reality. Her PR campaign shows her as brilliant but heartless. Can she pull it off? Of course she can. I fully believe Jasnah could do the job while training skyeels and chulls in her spare time. But having Kaladin around as a consort would be advantageous. With him at her side she would not have to work so hard to get Alethkar in line.
Kaladin needs love, if anything he needs it to mellow him some. What he does not need is power. Jasnah would not have to worry about him trying to take over like she would have with Amaram, he feels he has too much power and responsibilities as it is. So Kaladin needs love, it doesn’t have to be Jasnah that he falls for. But an attractive, intelligent female who can protect herself would be advantageous to him.
If the ship was based on mutual need alone I would reject it. See Shalladin. Mutual benefit and 2 characters whose strengths shore up the other’s weaknesses or perceived weaknesses? That’s a ship I can get behind.
While it’s true that Kaladin’s arc in OB follow some of the same beats as his arc in the first 2 SA, the outcomes make all the difference. It’s transitioning. His book of fail will make him change fundamentally as a character in a way that his success would not have. And I can garantee if he came across with a different sort of arc in OB it would have felt off, any changes feeling unearned. He would get labeled as a Gary Stu, just as Adolin has been. To become the person he must become he had to have this arc.
Edit: I keep double posting unintentionally. Can i get a moderator to look at this?
@47 EvilMonkey
Understanding that ships at the end of the day always come down to personal preference, I do not want you to think me responding to your points is me saying you are wrong, and I am right. If Jasnah and Kaladin work for you, good on you. This is just me saying why I do not think it works for me. Highprinces are Highprinces and Kings are Kings with the Alethi only because you have enough people backing them and agreeing they are. Only because people listen to them. Dalinar, Adolin, and Shallan all agree Jasnah is the only one that would get the Highprinces to do what she says. Through most of Way of Kings and Words of Radiance they ignored Dalinar. Adolin says himself they won’t listen to him. Jasnah has been trained her whole life in the profession of being a ruler. She’s got the knowledge, she has the backing, and shes got the skill. The Vorin religion is on the decline as the very current climate they find themselves in proves their entire belief structure invalid. The Heralds did not win on Roshar. They are not continuing to fight in the Tranquiline Halls, and the Almighty is in fact dead. Regardless we have seen Jasnah capable of leading a team that includes scholars, stormwardens, and ardents with no problems as well as from Jasnah’s own mouth that she has no problem with people worshiping as they wish. So Vorinism is not great of a hurdle for her as originally thought (in my opinion). Finally Kaladin is agnostic (from Brandon’s own mouth), and is a radiant on top of that. Kaladin is not a champion of the Vorin religion for them to get behind, so he wouldn’t be helping in that regard either. Jasnah does not need an heir as she has Gavinor. Jasnah has shown repeatedly her love for her family, and her respect for her late brother (as per WoB. to clarify respect as in you treat another person with respect, or respect their wishes. not respect him for his actions), so I see no reason why she would fight Gavinor on being heir apparent. Kaladin hangs out with his soldiers, so he isn’t “a man of the people” to bring the populace in her favor, and if him being a radiant is the reason for that, so is Jasnah so it would change nothing. So sure they, in my opinion, will learn to work together, but Jasnah does not need a relationship to be an effective ruler. In my opinion she will keep things together till the back five, where we will then get to dig into her past, and learn of that conflict and growth that led her to be the person she is “today”.
But this chapter is not about Jasnah, it is about Shallan, Kaladin, and Adolin, so I apologize for digressing.
edit: here are the two WoB I mentioned
geoffw35
You have Jasnah give such a good argument for the atheist point of view that I thought, well Brandon is probably an atheist (as I am). Then I started watching your writing class videos. Oops! In one of them you say that you feel you can successfully draw an atheist character. I certainly agree. ;-) Jasnah does seem to lack compassion to some degree, but I insist that religion is not necessary for one to be compassionate. You draw characters wonderfully!
Brandon Sanderson
Kaladin is agnostic, which most people miss in these discussions, and is the series argument for a compassionate non-believer. Dalinar is a liberal theist, and Navani an orthodox theist.
Mrs. Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]
If you had to characterize in a few sentences, as adults, what the relationship was like between Jasnah and Elhokar…?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
As adults. Their relationship is that of a fond-but-unyielding sister and a earnest-but-insecure brother.
Mrs. Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]
So they were affectionate?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, I would say they were affectionate. Not as much as, maybe, some other siblings. Like, you can look at Renarin and Adolin and see genuine affection. With Jasnah and Elhokar, it is almost… there’s definitely some affection, but there’s almost more of an allegiance. Like, they’re both dealing with certain pressures upon them, and their lives were very much consumed by their pressures, and they had that in common. But, I mean, Jasnah’s not a hugger anyway, if that makes sense?
Mrs. Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]
There was no jealousy between them?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Oh, there was definitely jealousy on Elhokar’s part. Definitely, the insecurity there. But Jasnah, was… I mean, she was a little bit aware of it, but… you know how she is, right?
Mrs. Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]
I didn’t know if that contributed to why she removed herself from the Shattered Plains.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, a little bit. I mean, her quest was more important to her than any of that. But… you know. Let my brother not live in as many shadows. Because he had a lot of shadows that he had to live in. And she was one of them, certainly. That would’ve been a consideration to Jasnah. But if had been right to stay, for her quest, she would have.
I can understand why pairing Jasnah with anyone would be an undesirable outcome for you and indeed for much of the fandom. Furthermore I agree with you that Jasnah does not need Kaladin to be an effective ruler. In fact my entire premise for the ship is that neither needs the other to be effective in their roles. @@@@@ Scath, I believe our point of disagreement lies in the idea of Kaladin’s benefit to Jasnah in her goals and responsibilities. I think he’d be an asset to her in a political and a personal sense and either you do not or that the benefits of them pairing would be negligible. Just clarifying the nature of the disagreement. Regardless, shipping does largely involve personal preference as you say. If my preference does not happen it ain’t like I’m going to stop reading after all. We’ll see what happens.
re: The Lopen’s first successful use of Stormlight: we transition to that scene directly from Navani and Dalinar asking Kaladin where he had hidden Elhokar. I think The Lopen’s success happens when–or shortly after–Kaladin comes into range.
@49 EvilMonkey
I gotcha. For me it is not desirable vs undesirable. I just personally do not see the need nor the function. I think for me what it comes down to is I think Kaladin would benefit Jasnah as a Captain of the Guard to a Queen, or as two Radiants fighting against the Voidbringers. I do not see Kaladin as a consort benefiting Jasnah and vice versa. No problemo. If Jasnah and Kaladin get together it won’t stop me from reading either. In fact I would probably end up looking for more ways in how they could combine their surges in combat. Perhaps her soulcasting rocks or spears of metal for him to lash at the enemy. Or her soulcasting rock to air to create a pit that he fills with adhesion trapping the enemy. Like I said, total magic system geek lol.
edit: To clarify, yes we agree there is not a need, but I also do not see how Kaladin, as we know him, would function in that capacity to aid her in those pursuits. Basically I do not see how Kaladin the “boyfriend/husband/consort” would bring the people to support Jasnah more or easier than Kaladin the “captain of the guard”.
@50 tiornys
Thanks for checking! Sounds about right to me.
edit 2: so random thought completely unrelated to anything, but just wanted to get it off my chest so I don’t forget, and then I will stop derailing this chapter. I wonder if any elsecallers or lightweavers ever had the idea of during combat, soulcasting air, or a carved wooden shield/dagger, into aluminum in order to do ye olde sword and board, or sword and dagger combo?
Gak! I got busy and forgot to read the article yesterday! Good work as always, ladies. I tend to think more like Shallan, so I wasn’t completely sure why Kal was in such a bad mood in this chapter (besides being himself that is-broody bridgeboy) so thanks for pointing that out.
It’s interesting that besides the Thrill, we hadn’t seen any of the unmade before this book, and suddenly here are three of them hanging out together. I’d guess any one of them could have made the darkness around the palace (especially Ashertmarn (sp?)) but all three together make it extra brooding. Definitely not a coincidence that they’re all together in Kholinar right now. A thought that just occurred to me: why wasn’t Kaladin sent to check on the queen/Kholinar when he went to check on his parents? Maybe lack of Stormlight in general, but I guess it’s really ‘thematic story reasons’.
Excited to be on part 3; though nervous now that I know what’s coming. We’ve been rereading this for almost a year if I remember right… so we should be done just about the time they hype for SA 4 starts at this rate. Which will be perfect. I’m glad to have a community to reread with, so much better than doing it on my own
Last tangent on Jasnah
I don’t think Kaladin helps her on the draw people to her banner front, its more help her to be a better ruler, humanize her, give her perspective on her lower caste subjects. There are many ways that Kaladin could be an aid to her rule, admittedly not all of them needing a marriage to do so. That’s why I ain’t dying on that particular hill but I would like to see it happen. Conversely, if all Kaladin could expect from Jasnah is a political marriage then I would severely downgrade my desire for the ship. There has to be at least a chance at love cause Kal definitely needs it.
@47: You hardly are the only one who’s interested within a potential Kaladin/Jasnah relationship. There is a whole thread on the 17th Shard having it as a topic and I saw it getting mentioned many times on Reddit. Hence, from what I could gather within the fandom, more than one reader shares your thoughts.
Your arguments also are in-line with those I have read elsewhere. I do agree Jasnah can be heartless and does struggle with empathy even if she did spare Renarin and has shown she did care about her close family. I do agree, not unlike Dalinar, it is quite probable she’ll need someone to challenge her as her as the absolute ruler may bring out the worst of her (as opposed to the best). I however find balance can be found within many narrative alternatives other than romance.
As I said above, there is a rational for it if Brandon chooses to go down this way, but my personal position on it is I’d prefer if Jasnah remained single because I appreciated the inclusion of a female character who isn’t defined, at least in part, by her romantic ship. This being said, if Brandon truly wants to go there and feels a romantic relationship in between Jasnah and Kaladin would enhance both their character and the narrative, then I am willing to rock with the boat and see where it carries me.
I agree with you on a ships, any ship, needing to benefit to both characters involved and not just one.
I also agree Kaladin needs love. I do think he will get it, but I am not convinced it will be Jasnah. My wish for SA4 would however be for Kaladin to find this romantic interest.
On the matter of Kaladin’s narrative, I don’t have the answer. My thoughts merely are I felt two many of his narrative elements were reminiscent of his narrative in WoK, so perhaps I would have wished for the same arc with less correlation? Eating stew with the Tower Guards is a powerful scene because, us the reader, easily make the connection with how Bridge 4 bonded. It helps strengthen the bond Kaladin has with those men which is later used to justify why he froze on their behalf. The problem is Kaladin’s narrative doesn’t have much else going on but those few key scenes, so I definitely feel it read the process to reach his ultimate failure lacked… originality perhaps?
Would another process make Kaladin appear like a Gary Stu? Like Adolin? What makes some readers refer to Adolin as such is the fact his successes aren’t well balanced enough with failures and while the character does have failures, they aren’t narratively significant enough to read as if they were. Adolin gives the impression he succeeds at everything without putting on enough effort, I guess he does make it, but the narrative isn’t showing it.
Kaladin however has been defined from day one by his failures, so the danger to be referred to by the dreaded Gary Stu term seems lesser, at least going from my perspective. He also struggles much to achieve what he has which makes the appellation less likely. I think.
So while yes, I did like Kaladin’s arc, while I did appreciate how he did not say the Fourth Oath, how he did not save the day, I still wish his narrative had more refreshing elements tied to it than it ultimately did.
According to some of the hints I’ve gotten when casting across the fandom, Dalinar is going to be the Big 4 character that takes a step back in the narrative in book 4. Venli, since it’s her book, will probably get center stage leaving Kal, Shallan and Szeth to pick up the slack. Szeth probably doesn’t start his Shinovar quest until Part 4 of the new novel soonest. That means Kal gets to step up with his new understanding and Shallan gets to display how much married life has healed her. All this to say Kaladin’s arc will look much different going forward as he isn’t going to be establishing new fighting forces or joining other fighting forces. Instead he is going to be coming to grips with his myriad of new roles. I doubt his arc looks anything like his arc in the first 3 books going forward. Honestly I think the person with the most varied story arc is Shallan. None of her arcs look the same from book to book. WOK had her as a poser who fell in love with Scholarship. WOR shows a young woman growing up and into her own. OB shows a woman overwhelmed with the changes in her life adopting dangerous behaviours as coping mechanisms.
@53 EvilMonkey
Hey dude, like I said whatever floats your boat. Personally I do not think Jasnah needs help humanizing her or being a better ruler, but if that fits for you, good on ya. Already listed my reasons why I don’t think there needs to be a relationship. My personal reading of the character differs. Don’t see the point in me beating a dead horse. I wish you luck with your theory!
I think what bothers many fans (including me) about Kaladin in Oathbringer is that there was too little actually happening to Kaladin in his very long viewpoint segments. They were not about Kaladin, mostly. One was about the freed Parshmen, one was about the Wall Guard and occupied Kholinar … and both were not just in Kaladin’s viewpoint, they were mostly inside his head and had as main characters only Kaladin and Syl. If they had spent more time actually interacting with the Parshmen and Guardsmen and less in (frankly quite boring) introspection, I think folks like Gepeto and myself would have been happier. I believe Fine Arts majors like Mr. Sanderson would call this a “structural problem”.
Note: I am not claiming to speak for you, Gepeto, I’m just guessing at your opinion.
@55: Inklings we have gotten from book 4 do indeed state Dalinarwas taking a step back going into the next book. I am personnally very curious to see how the line up will look like as I fell Brandon will surprise us this time around. I think we may be getting a book which won’t focus so closely on Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar as the previous ones. I expect everyone’s arc to be shorter this time around, though I could be wrong. I expect we are still going to see plenty of Dalinar but given how his character ends the book having dealt with his Big Issue, I somewhat think his bog growth arc has come and passed.
I however agree Kaladin’s arc should differ from the one he had within the previous books. Well, I hope it will.
I also agree Shallan hashad the most diverse arcs so far though I still hzve issues with the focus her arc got in OB.
I do not expect Szeth to have bigger role within the next book 4. I expect something similar to what he has gotten so far, book 5 being his big book.
@56: LOL Carl, you guessed right. With OB, I felt Brandon wrote too many introspective arcs: Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan. Evrything just happens within their heads, but what really happens outside, we don’t get to see it. We just read how those three thought process goes by while being in the outside world, but they don’t get to intersact with it. Not significantly enough and when they do, it revolves around what the outside world does to their issues, never the opposite.
Kaladin’s arc just lacked him actually doing something other then fueling his inner dilemma. They are in Kholinar, doomed city, devastated. How come most of part 3 is just about Kaladin and Shallan’s inner issues? How come we don’t get to read the desperation and the fear? Shallan gets brownie points for at least being different then what we read from herin the past, but Kaladin? How come all we got to see from him was the Tower Guard being happy, eating stewand him feeling at home? The city falls, how come we the aftermath is about Kaladin’s shock and not about the fact they have failed…?
So yes, this is why I do feel part 3 indeed suffers from structural problems, it suffers from making all arcs internal, none external. I however have hopes book 4 will focus more on the external narrative, with Venli being the lead and Dalinar having a smaller role. I can’t picture Venli’s arc being as internal as the other characters, so she should bring in more balance here. I think.
I think Jasnah is a Queen Elizabeth the 1st stand in. She has to stay unattached in order to keep the potential for an attachment to any side. That keeps all the other families wanting to court her, so to speak, in the hopes they might marry into the royal line.
Kaladin provides her with a Captain of the Queen’s Guard who is a sounding board and not a yes man. No romantic relationship required. She will need help and she will need it from those who are strong enough to argue with her. QE1 was brutal and Jasnah needs advisors to keep her from that road.
“I agree with you on a ships, any ship, needing to benefit to both characters involved and not just one.”
AHA!! I just figured something out. I don’t know if this makes me weird, or if it’s more normal than I think – or if it’s just a matter of phrasing, but…
Since this came up in the shipping context, I’ll use that as the example. Turns out that I don’t actually agree that a ship needs to benefit the characters to be a good plot. Perhaps it’s just that I would phrase it differently: a ship, or any plot device, needs to benefit the character arc, even though it may actually be destructive to the character as a “person.” So I could easily see a very well-written plot involving a relationship which benefited one character while actively damaging the other – as long as the damage was constructive within the narrative.
It’s kind of like a character death. Eshonai’s death wasn’t much of a benefit to her, and it was sad for the reader, but as part of the narrative, it was great. I could see a ship going that way too. (Although fwiw, I have zero desire to see Kaladin and Jasnah romantically involved. My personal theory/hope is that if Kaladin survives long enough, he’ll find Tarah again.)
@59: I like the comparison with Jasnah and Queen Elizabeth 1st. I read Ken Follet’s Column of Fire (the last installment within the cathedral series) last summer: it focuses on the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1st. Tough century. I had no idea how 16th century France and England were so cutthroat, well, I had an inkling, but reading into a novel was brings history into a new perspective.
I agree Jasnah will need advisers if she is to learn how to keep her harsher side in reign.
@60: I understand what you mean and I think I can get behind this. Back when I thought Shallan would end up with Kaladin, I figured it it meant Adolin getting character development, even if it isn’t positive for him, then it might make a narrative I could get behind. The alternative, Shallan gets with Kaladin and Adolin is perfectly fine with it just had zero appeal to me. I like where it is going now because I feel it brings something both Shallan and Adolin’s characters needed. I also believe their dynamic will add to the main narrative when the Kholin household implode after the truth of Dalinar’s past became known.
I like the Eshonai’s example. I have seen some critics of her death, some accusing Brandon of having chosen to kill her because some readers complained there weren’t enough death in WoR. I disagree. Brandon explained how, while it is true Eshonai was initially supposed to live, she bit the dust quite early in the planning, prior to WoR being even released or written (if I am not mistaken). Brandon said how, throughout his planning, he realized Venli was a more interesting character to keep on developing than Eshonai who came across as yet another “commendable soldier”. And the narrative already had many of those.
I thought it was interesting to hear Brandon’s thought process here and I wholeheartedly agree with him. Eshonai always struck me as not distinctive enough for the other leads to really be interesting. Venli has, IMHO, much more potential, within this specific series. So did Eshonai’s death served the narrative? Absolutely! Were there readers who didn’t like it? There will always be readers who dislike one narrative element nor the other, I personally loved how it was handled. I personally enjoyed finding out I have been mislead into thinking she might have survived when, really, the odds were she didn’t.
So yes, I can get behind a ship being constructive towards the narrative even if not necessarily positive for the characters involved.
Count me in for those who hope Kaladin will meet Tarah again! There were some WoB which seems to imply maybe the narrative will go there… So, I think Kaladin will get romance, but it won’t be Shallan and it won’t be Jasnah.
Going by historical examples, even Liz #1 had lovers who were also advisors. If I’m pushing the ship too strongly I do apologize. Like I’ve always maintained if it doesn’t work out like that I’m totally fine with it. It just seems to me that making Kaladin a love match for Jasnah would make a good narrative choice as one of the only male characters that absolutely would not undermine her rule. There’s other reasons I think this would be good. If someone wants me to elaborate I will, probably in pm so I don’t derail the thread any further.
As for bad relationships making for good drama, that’s absolutely true. I’m not sure that it would work for this story however. At least not for this set of characters that are already going through so much. Adding an abusive relationship on top of everything they already have to deal with seems a bridge too far in my opinion. And it’s not a story Brandon usually tells. I trust in his talent but still. I admit I’m biased though and I tend to agonize when I see characters I care about suffer and/or make stupid mistakes. Now if Meyer were writing SA Shallan would have ended up with Kaladin and it would have been a beautiful disaster. If Martin were doing it Addie and Kal murder each other.
@62 EvilMonkey
I don’t think you have anything to apologize for. I do not think you were pushing anything strongly. What matters is it fits/works for you. Even if it never ends up playing out in the books, you would still have your own fanfiction to enjoy. Just like I am sure if they were to get together, Brandon would do a great job of it. True Elizabeth had lovers (though some speculate Thomas Seymour put her off to sexual relationships), but she also had a cult of followers who worshiped her as the “virgin queen” as well as jailed, and executed a past lover that sought to usurp the crown, or damage the country. The pope said she was a pretender, and any catholic in england that supported her would be excommunicated, but she still ruled for many a year unmarried, as well as allowed many to worship as they wished freely so long as they did not actively seek to undermine the country (when catholics were sent to convert the populace with the goal of removing her from the throne in favor of Mary). By the end of her rule, she was quite the celebrated queen (though this was in comparison to the failures of the subsequent monarch) all without the need of a relationship to assist in her narrative (marriage could have lead to political unrest, or even insurrection). But again, I wish you luck in your theory!
Wet@60
I agree. Especially with the “if.” I don’t think he’ll get the fairy tale ending.
@EvilMonkey, I love your idea/game of “what would happen if X wrote SA”.
If Mercedes Lackey wrote SA then True Blood would have started communicating telepathically with Adolin and they would fly along with Kaladin.
@65: I think if anyone else wrote SA, Shallan was choosing Kaladin. Let’s be honest, the girl never chooses the clean-cut prince when the alternative is a dark, broody mysterious man with a dark past. That’s why I love how Shallan did choose Adolin: I thought he had no chances. As soon as the chasm was written, I thought for sure she’d go for Kaladin.
I really love how Brandon flip the readers expectations here and made Shallan relate to Adolin in such a delightful unexpected way as opposed to have her bond with Kaladin due to them sharing a “broken past”.
Edit: If Meyer wrote SA, Kaladin would be running along shirt-less and he and Adolin would have an abd starring contest…
@goddess
Thanks. I can’t take all the credit. I picked it up from a post on 17th Shard. But it is fun.
If Butcher wrote SA Adolin would have a cat.
If Collins wrote SA Shallan picks Adolin too, just with more angst and dithering
If Eriksson wrote SA then Shallan would actually split into her 3 core personalities, each of which hooks up and then murders their love interest.
If Sir Pratchett wrote SA she’d be chasing Rincewind.
@67 Shallan chasing Rincewind? =D Thanks for that hilarious picture! Now, I am pondering which SA character would sing the hedgehog song. Probably also Shallan – or one of her personas in a couple of decades – after drinking a large cup of this Horneater stuff..
@62: If Adolin and Kaladin killed each other in Martin’s version, there a good chance it would happen at Adolin and Shallan’s wedding. Or even at someone else’s wedding. Martin likes his weddings lethal.
@67: I be Adolin’s cat would be referred to as a mink.
@69
A mink named Maya and a Ryshidium named Mouse. A perfect menagerie.
And yes to Martin and the bloody wedding. Would it be the blue wedding due to Sapphire being Kaladin’s polestone?
In Tolkien’s SA the rhythms the parsh hear would be the Ainulindale and Khriss would study the languages of the Cosmere.
@71
In Tolkein’s SA, the books wouldn’t have flashbacks, but 10 larger volumes detailing the history of Roshar would eventually be released, including how Adonalsium created the planet, the history of forks, and an appendix volume containing descriptions of every type of spren, their function, how they interact, level of sentience, and which ones have bonded with humans.
I could go for a 10 volume Rosharan history with a spren appendix. But only if it didn’t tske 30 years and I could do without the forks
If Robert Jordan wrote SA, then an entire section of WoR would have been Shallan taking a bath. Also, at the end of OB, Shallan would have called both Adolin and Kaladin woolheaded, folded her arms, and married both of them.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Andrew @74 – But she’d have sniffed and tugged her braid first, wouldn’t she?
@74, 75 As long as there is no spanking involved, I would read the story =D
@76 Shallan would have been spanked at least twice by now, once by Jasnah and once by Tyn (or at least, Tyn would have attempted a spanking).
I need to re-rail the conversation long enough to point out that in Chapter 33 (Cymatics) of Way of Kings Kabsal is actually proving that the cities are Cymatic patterns:
If Jane Yolen had written the Stormlight Archive, Adolin would’ve ended up with the prostitute he saved in Way of Kings, and Shallan would’ve drifted out of the narrative again.
OMG I nearly choked on my food at @74 (especially as I just came from readin the WoT thread).
Anyway, throw me into the Shallan+Adolin camp. I do like how Shallan and Kaladin interact but agree it’s a bit too tempestuous to be a stable relationship, but that a great friendship can still come of it. Syl’s meddling in the area is probably one of the reasons I don’t really like her, but it’s interesting to think on the fact that as her whole existence is based on ‘bonding’, that’s why she’s so fixated on it. But then again, I don’t know that the other spren are (Pattern’s mating preoccupation aside ;) )
I think there might be some connection between cymatics and ryhthms and vibration…but I don’t know what :)
“While the external fact is that she’s “punching down” socially, I don’t think she’s likely to see it that way.”
Actually, she isn’t. Technically, she and Kaladin are of the same social rank, now that they’re both known Shardbearers.
Also, add me to the list of people that think Kaladin/Shallan works much better as a quasi-sibling relationship than as romance. And I think that’s part of Syl’s issue here: she’s not wrong that Shallan is good for Kaladin and that Kaladin needs people in his life who can cheer him up, but she doesn’t understand the difference between affection-love and romance-love, or the fact that what Kaladin needs from Shallan is the former and not the later. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that spren don’t reproduce sexually?